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18/01/2011

Tactica: How to kill Mech Guard with Blood Angels?


Currently there's a discussion on http://www.dakkadakka.com/ where someone is requesting advice how to take out mech Imperial Guard with Blood Angels, and the best way to do it. Here's the discussion: How to beat mech Guard?

Firstly before moving on I'm shocked it's just a quality discussion and not some ignorant fools trolling, however the folks replying are like minded people so no wonder it's a quality discussion instead of a flame fest.

In the thread I suggested using a Razor-Spam list for Blood Angels, keep the Guard at arms length. Lets presume this is typical Mech Guard so plenty of plasma, meltas, Vendettas etc. Others suggested a DoA style list.

My arguments for Razor-Spam is you can keep the Guard at length, sure Guard and out mech Angels but they have quantity more than quality here. Angels lascannons will glance on a 3+ and Guard won't have much defense (in terms of cover saves) for those tanks. Guard either work on long range or short range and in Mech Guards case it is short range with plasma and meltas. Pop a Chimera and that weak small T3 5+ armour save unit is exposed, you probably cannot waste them from where the Angels are placed but that unit is on foot exposed and cannot get into range so quickly without a transport. If the tanks explodes then great as it will probably take some puny Guardsmen with it and hopefully cause enough damage so the squad could fall back, nice.

Once Guard has been partially de-meched Angels roll up 12" and unleash a torrent of plasma or lascannons again and hope to pop my tanks. Then next turn bail out and assault. Should wipe the Guard and of course things are easier said than done and obivously no forgetting the dice, things may not go to plan. Speaking of plan like any other army target priority is key - take out the Vendettas first as those nasty lascannons will glance weak Razorbacks on a 2+ and spread the tanks out in case of ordnance - a Librarian with shield power is always helpful, but lets consider it is a 5+ cover save and it is not the most awesome thing in the world, but, can be helpful.

Others have mentioned DoA lists as I said at the start. The beauty of DoA they will deep strike right in and bring melta straight into play causing mass damage to the Guard more easier, like mech Angels are hoping for, DoA also hope tanks explode and kill Guardsmen in the process. However there's some problems with DoA.

Unlike mech Angels DoA comes down piecemeal and not until turn 2, mech Angels will have a turn shooting but of course a turn to be shot at. DoA may scatter and units destroyed, placed else where or back in reserve which means you've got less units, or scatter out of the important melta range. What mech Guard excel at is plenty of special weapons which all have short ranges. Based upon how many units will come down using DoA you're looking at 1/3 of your army VS a whole possible Guard army. You could pop a few tanks but in more likely hood just as many as mech Angels can do, but here's my main point of why mech is the best against Guard. DoA drops down opens up Chimera, next turn Guardsmen can unleash rapid fire plasma which doesn't care about power armour or feel no pain, or the Guardsmen get frisky and launch a assault to stop Angels getting furious charge and weight of attacks in.

With mech Angels the Guard are blown out the Chimeras at a range, those plasmas and meltas on foot can hardly threaten anything then when they have to foot slog it. But with DoA you land on the Guardsmen's doorstep and they will respond, in kind, with mass rapid fire plasma etc. DoA may have more Assault Marines to soak up the damage, but mech Angels Assault Marines aren't even in shooting range of those plasma to take any damage period.

And that's why mech Angels are better for killing mech Guard, Guard with mass specials are most dangerous up close and putting your own troops into the firing line isn't good, especially when you only have 1/3 of your army to do it with.

What say you for killing mech Guard, mech Angels or Descent of Angels style lists?

7 comments:

Atreides said...

i think you are oversimplifying. guard are far more effective at range than BA ever can be.

any half decent mech guard player will have a ton of autocannons, multilasers and lascannons in his force. for every lascannon you can field, he will have two autocannons (probably on hydras). yes this is in addition to melta/plasma.

Venerable said...

Screw you Atreides! You know nothing! The true angels of death will crush the weakling humans before them! "Heil Dante!"
lol.
I fully agree with Mercer that Mech trumps DoA in this case.
DoA Angels will be wiped...even removing the most lethal threats will not save the Angels, as IG have too much redundancy built in due to cheap effective choices...

As to Mech on Mech action... It depends how each respective army is built, a Razorspam army that faces IG similar to how Atreides and I run IG (check out Sanguinesons.blogspot.com) would really suffer as Atreides states due to high volume of mid strength suppression fire and reliable APC killing fire.
However, a Av13 heavy BA force can effectively neutralise the vast majority of the IG fire (Autocannon and Multilasers), so therefore it comes down to a case of target priority.

The need exists clearly to remove the Vendetta's and the other IG units with long range, high strength, high quality weaponry...in this case pretty much just Lascannons...

Once these critical threats have been dealt with we move on to the softer stuff if any available fire is left...

I think it's too easy to state that Mech IG trumps everything... although when I play as them...they do...cos I'm the tits.

Nuff said... lol

TheGraveMind said...

I'm confused to where you are getting 1/3 of your army from DoA? its a 4+ reroll. You should get 3/4 of your army turn two.

Also, your mech list has the same problem as IG has, you require first turn to alpha strike. If you don't you are getting shot up pretty hard.

I play DoA, and so I'm interested in figuring out how to beat mech IG with them. I don't plan/want to change my entire list to deal with them.

Rapid fire would be the best option for guardsmen, assaulting in would be futile, cause you're getting FNP against their attacks, and ASM have two attacks base, and better stats.

I need to face against IG with my new list to see how they play out. I feel I'll be relying on my support units more in that game. Typhoons, storm raven, and bikes.

Sgt. Brisbane said...

I've played three or four games against Mechguard in the last year and I've won all of the games (almost tabling the Guard players twice).

DoA all the way. I can't out shoot them (can anyone?), but with rerolling reserves, d6 scatter and melta spam, most of the dangerous tanks will be dead or stunned on the turn you land. With a VV squad, you can assault the dudes that you just forced out, it can get very ugly.

Honestly, I think DoA is great against the meta right now. You need to be especially careful of vindicators, of course, but in general, DoA is great against most players and their net-lists.

This is anecdotal evidence, naturally, but it has worked well for me.

Now, thunderwolf cav, that's a horse of a different color.

Farmpunk said...

I still think beating Mech IG with Razorspam is a pretty viable option. SandWyrm and I did a Proxy game at 2k one time, and I didn't have a lot of issues with getting my razorbacks all over him.

The Razors being fast is pretty rough on IG. a mix of las/plas razors, and Assault Cannon razors, with some flamestorm baals did a good number on the IG.
You could add in some DoA troops for added disruption, but I think assault squads w/melta and sgt. with combi melta/ Pfist do pretty well.
I had a couple of priests, but I'm not sure they're necessary.

I went razorspam becasue it's similar to how I mop up Mech IG with my Mech WH. It's mobile, and can throw a lot of shots around, then the troops inside are a pain for IG to deal with.

Mercer said...

Atreides - I agree that Guard are more affective at range, however a mech army wouldn't include any or many autocannons or lascannons. Lascannons being only on Vendettas or HWT which probably won't be taken or autocannons on Hydra or Platoon again, which won't be many. Take those in the Veterans squads and those squads are not being mobile and weapon load outs are conflicting.

Venerable - thanks for the comment and will check the posts on the blog ;)

TheGraveMind - Yes I know it's a re-roll but it's still 4+ which is 50% chance, you won't bring down a huge lot.

Assaulting would be the best option for Guard as Angels excel at assaults with furious charge wounding on a 2+ instead of 3+, it's better to charge than be charged, especially against a assault army which will have FnP either way. Angels getting the charge is the strong point.

Sgt. Brisbane - You're right, I don't think anyone can shoot them, but it's quantity of quality with Guard, they need to hit ;)

Farmpunk - With Razorbacks being fast you can close the gap when required and still fire which is good, or hang back shoot and then move up. I wouldn't take a fist in Razorback lists as you cannot assault out the transport. More meltas where possible would be nice.

Farmpunk said...

more melta would be nice, but I think it's kind of difficult to actually get more melta into the squads. combi-meltas don't do too bad, and are a way to fit in more melta.

The Fists are there to encourage your opponent to kill everyone in a squad. One Melta, or one Pfist pounding on tanks is still bad for mech IG. Plus, it's good to ahve a CC threat running around, even if it strikes last.
Razorbacks aren't assault vehicles, but if you disembark before moving, you can get your 2" disembark, 6" move, then 6" assault. It's enough to surprise a lot of people.

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